clearing the air? i dunno...talking to thin air, maybe...

as i promised, here's that chatlog of the exchange between me and a muslim dude.

UPDATE: it's the next day/night, and earlier i had another conversation with this guy that should shed a little more light on my position, especially since i tried to be VERY clear with him. as for his actual position, however, it's still difficult for me to determine, because i haven't seen any overriding concepts emerging from his discourse, except perhaps broad impressions: for instance, judging by his continued attempts to get me to admit i would kill in increasingly bizarre hypothetical situations, he seems to believe that it's ok to teach, even to COMMAND people to kill under certain circumstances. but of course, this is a fundamental part of islamic doctrine, so i guess he's gotta swallow it whether he likes it or not. so, yet again, i'm left at square 1, basically not knowing where this guy REALLY stands on anything.

i'll paste the new chatlog here at the bottom, below my comments from the previous one.

-------------

[11/24/2009 8:55:25 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: The Zionist Story - part 1 0f 8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eK7JJea3Sz8&feature=related
[11/24/2009 1:58:43 PM] brian says: yes, zionism is a very destructive doctrine... |-(
[11/24/2009 1:59:29 PM] brian says: but you've gotta ask yourself why they feel so justified in committing so many atrocities...could it be that they think the creator of the universe says it's ok to kill people under certain circumstances?
[11/25/2009 8:57:45 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: well God give us free will to do what we want this is our fredom and the best of us who do good things
[7:07:29 AM] brian says: ok, but free will can exist without someone to give it to you...in fact, that's my whole objection: this assumption that you NEED someone to "give" you free will, morality, wisdom, etc. - free WILL is available for all, but freeDOM can be taken away...and it's important that people know how to make wise choices, because very BAD things can be done for "good" reasons. morality is not static, as many people would like to think; it's dynamic, requiring constant vigilance and examination of principles, and sensible application of those principles. it is virtually impossible to come up with any universal system of behavior that will work in EVERY case - not to mention, it smacks of intellectual laziness to assume that one can know ALL the right answers to ANY problem that might arise, and then just rest on his laurels; especially when no laurels have been earned by using rational thought! (namely, when someone takes information from an external source and accepts it uncritically, without any independent verification)...
anyway, to sum it up, it is for ALL those reasons(and more) that i think divine mandates are a bad way to go about learning, teaching, or even THINKING about morality, because once you think you have answers set in stone that MUST be believed(on pain of everlasting torture) , then you are sacrificing your ability to think like a human being, and to always treat others like human beings. if "perfect answers" are assumed to have already been found, then for the people who trust those answers, the search for truth is over. it can be a very painful thing to try to reconcile this state of mind with life in the real world. attempting to adhere to a set of doctrines that are assumed to be monolithic will always pose a problem, especially in an ever-changing world, and especially when those doctrines are FAR from monolithic, but indeed are subjects of deep contention between those who THINK they know all the answers. and it is such vitriolic contention that can easily lead to violence. i believe most people in the world are decent(particularly because of a concept called the biological leash), and they won't easily find a reason to be hateful, destructive or intolerant of their fellow human beings. indeed, arguably all humans at least have the capacity for these antisocial behaviors, but they never become a real problem until people think they have a GOOD REASON for them.
anyway, i could go on and on and on about this stuff, but i feel like maybe i really shouldn't waste your time...based on our previous interchanges, i've kinda gotten the feeling that you really just aren't interested in any other theories besides the ones you're accustomed to - and you know what, i do understand that...i just hope that someday more people will have the courage to face their beliefs, and analyze the reasons they have for justifying certain courses of action. that's all i really want in this world...i don't need everybody to agree with me(in fact, that would suck!) all i want is for people to be more careful about the things they DO agree with. that's all.
peace.
[7:15:15 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: will my friend tell me what morality do athiest people have cos i can give u 1000s from islam islam is a way of life and all what the muslims do is not for money or anything elss we do good things only for the love of God but for you as an athist waht wil make u do good things nothing so what wil u give to humanty 0000000000000
[7:27:34 AM] brian says: hm, this is exactly what i was talking about: i really don't know what the deal is here! i dunno if you're just avoiding the subject, because you're uncomfortable with accepting my ideas, or maybe that you truly just don't understand... (think)
[7:28:39 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: my friend i want to have somthing and all athiest agree with it
[7:29:14 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: how can u know if any athiest did a bad act how can u know its not an act of al athiest ?
[7:29:59 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: we have a way of life athiest people dont have nothing so how can we be sure that they have morality ????????????
[7:30:05 AM] brian says: at the VERY least, you seem not to notice certain important points i make, perhaps simply because you don't care, or you don't understand, or maybe you just don't notice (think)
[7:32:43 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: masons and communism and others its all comes from atheist people every people who dont believe in God they are atheist people and evry evil they do its an act of athiesm
[7:33:55 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: why cos athiest peole dont have a way of life to give it to humnaty they life by their desire
[7:34:30 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: imagin if the athiest peopl countrol the world what will happend ?????
[7:35:44 AM] brian says: "don't have nothing"? see, once again, you're using the same old, dusty, tired phrases...i don't know if they're just ploys to irritate me, or whether you actually believe them - but i will tell you one thing i've noticed: you don't ever seem to accept or understand ANY of my explanations when you mention these things... (think) and you never ask me any follow-up questions to the points i make, you just make up questions that might be directed towards a child, which have seemingly obvious answers |-( but, the funny thing is, the answers aren't always as obvious as you think! anyway, i don't ever feel like we have a real discussion. i get the vibe from you that you're just some old, crusty teacher who hates his job and asks the students the same questions all the time, because he doesn't know any other way to teach the material :D
[7:36:25 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: lol
[7:36:43 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: give me somthign that i can understand athiest with it
[7:36:45 AM] brian says: hey, you probably don't remember this, but once i asked you where YOUR morality comes from...but you never answered me...
[7:36:51 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: for me as a muslim i have quran
[7:37:07 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: its all comes from quran
[7:37:25 AM] brian says: i mean, is there any answer besides "because god says so?" is that your only criterion to judge ethical issues? (think)
[7:37:27 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: open quran and read the history of prophet muhammad and u will see it
[7:37:56 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: i have a teaching and this teaching is me
[7:38:03 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: ist hard to understand it ?
[7:38:15 AM] brian says: ok, great, you have a book, and that's your ONLY source? (think) so basically, your ONLY method of distinguishing between right and wrong is if you think "god says so"? (think)
[7:38:31 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: yes
[7:38:36 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: waht about yours ?
[7:38:39 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: nothing
[7:38:46 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: its only your dseire
[7:38:59 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: desire*
[7:39:10 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: thats all
[7:39:20 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: what is ok with your v its ok
[7:39:26 AM] brian says: ok, OBVIOUSLY you were NOT paying attention to what i said at the very BEGINNING...
[7:39:27 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: and what is not its not ok
[7:39:46 AM] brian says: this is what i said just a few minutes ago: (wait)
"i believe most people in the world are decent(particularly because of a concept called the biological leash), and they won't easily find a reason to be hateful, destructive or intolerant of their fellow human beings."
[7:40:35 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: so u just fellow a human like u ?
[7:40:42 AM] brian says: we don't need to go searching for morality, because it's already built in! it's an evolved trait!
[7:40:57 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: ok iof its
[7:41:03 AM] brian says: no, you're ignoring what i said about the "biological leash" |-(
[7:41:06 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: tell me is it ok to drink alchool ?
[7:41:23 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: ist ok to do sex without marrieg ?
[7:41:27 AM] brian says: it's a simple fact of nature that in order for any social animal to survive, there MUST be morality.
[7:41:46 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: tell me is it ok to drink alchool ?
[7:41:50 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: ist ok to do sex without marrieg ?
[7:42:00 AM] brian says: alright, dude, let's not do this again right now, please. can we just try to stick with the main issue? i'm really getting tired of these childish questions... |-(
[7:42:28 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: yes its a childish questions. cos u cant answer it
[7:42:37 AM] brian says: see, every single time i give you proof of human's inherent morality, you start asking me these ridiculous questions :^) are you trying to ignore me on purpose? (think)
[7:42:55 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: lol
[7:43:02 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: u didnt even understand me
[7:43:21 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: from where you have your morality ?
[7:43:26 AM] brian says: look dude, if you don't want to have a serious conversation, that's fine...i can boogie anytime
[7:43:36 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: from where you have your morality ?
[7:43:36 AM] brian says: [7:41:27 AM] brian says: it's a simple fact of nature that in order for any social animal to survive, there MUST be morality.
[7:43:38 AM] brian says: [7:41:27 AM] brian says: it's a simple fact of nature that in order for any social animal to survive, there MUST be morality.
[7:43:48 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: good
[7:44:00 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: so lets see what is athiest like u
[7:44:05 AM] brian says: seriously, how many times do i need to say it? |-(
[7:44:13 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: morality ?
[7:44:25 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: tell me about your morality
[7:44:36 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: is it ok to drink achool
[7:44:43 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: alchool
[7:44:48 AM] brian says: wait a second, do you even know what morality is? :D or do you think it's just "whoever agrees with me"? :D
[7:44:59 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: :D
[7:45:08 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: why dont u answer
[7:45:10 AM] brian says: are you expecting a "yes or no" answer?
[7:45:13 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: and i wil tell u
[7:45:41 AM] brian says: because it depends...on a micro level, it's ok...on a macro level, it's not.
[7:45:51 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: aha
[7:46:01 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: so its ok to drink
[7:46:08 AM] brian says: that's why i call these questions childish, because they grossly oversimplify the concept of morality :D
[7:46:49 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: so my friend when an athiest is drunk can he hurt any one even his family or not ?
[7:47:07 AM] brian says: on a micro scale, yes, it's ok (nod) but when it begins to affect more people, then it begins to become more of a problem.
[7:47:31 AM] brian says: ok, if you had understood what i said, you wouldn't need to ask that question.
[7:47:38 AM] brian says: [7:45:41 AM] brian says: because it depends...on a micro level, it's ok...on a macro level, it's not.
[7:47:43 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: so my friend when an athiest is drunk can he hurt any one even his family or not ?
[7:48:25 AM] brian says: on a micro level, it only affects the person who drinks the alcohol. but when it affects other human beings, then it becomes a problem: when it reaches the macro scale.
[7:48:32 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: what is the morality in hurting people cos you are drunk ?
[7:48:51 AM] brian says: actually, now THAT's a good question! (y)
[7:49:00 AM] brian says: right on, bro! you're stepping up your game! :D(handshake)
[7:49:03 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: good u start understanding me
[7:49:11 AM] brian says: still, it's easy to answer (nod)
[7:49:17 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: ok go for it
[7:49:41 AM] brian says: well, i still don't know what you're getting at, but as long as you ask meaningful questions, i'll gladly try to follow (chuckle)
[7:50:27 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: its ok
[7:52:07 AM] brian says: anyway, it's normally understood that when something happens on accident, it's not really a crime(at least it isn't as serious a crime as something intentional)...
BUT, in the case of alcohol, even if a drunk hurts someone accidentally, it's still his fault, because he made the choice to drink.
[7:52:36 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: aha
[7:52:47 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: so the problem here cos he is drunk
[7:53:04 AM] brian says: so he can be held accountable for his choice, which led to the wrongful actions(whether or not he intended those actions as a consequence)
[7:53:36 AM] brian says: oh yeah, i was going to expand on my answer, but i didn't want to keep you waiting too long (chuckle)
[7:53:41 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: so my friend what is the problem in achool and why ?
[7:54:54 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: brb
[7:55:38 AM] brian says: ok
[7:55:43 AM] brian says: damn skype crashed (doh)
[7:59:38 AM] brian says: anyway, i'll play along with this little thought experiment for the sake of argument, and assume in this case that the most direct cause of this hypothetical crime was the fact that the man was drunk. (namely, that it wouldn't have happened if he hadn't been drunk) and indeed, that does frequently happen, unfortunately. :S
[8:03:03 AM] brian says: but if you're trying to look for the true root cause of this crime, then it's not productive to just stop at the bottle: you have to look at the man behind the bottle, who bought it, who opened it, who drank too much so he lost his self-control.
[8:05:54 AM] brian says: and this is exactly what i was talking about earlier! trying to find "answers" to moral questions is something everybody does! i really have no idea why you find it so hard to believe, but it really doesn't matter what a person's religion is; this subject is important to just about anybody. unfortunately, though, many people don't give it the attention it deserves... |-(
[8:23:37 AM] brian says: anyway, the reason why i put "answers" in quotes is because dealing with ethicsis like dealing with mathematics: there are different levels of complexity, and the more complex ethics gets(just like math), the harder it is to find a solid "answer" that can be used EVERY time. in math, it's called a "proof" - and it's not at all unusual for mathematical proofs to defy solution for years, decades, even centuries!
so, that's why i've gotten frustrated in the past when you kept coming at me with these basic questions that are like arithmetic, like 1+1=2...because first, you ask me what the SOURCE of my morality is(which is a very complex and serious question, something at least more like algebra, if not trigonometry or calculus). and the reason why it's frustrating is because to me, it feels exactly like you're trying to solve a complex mathematical proof by performing simple arithmetic functions over and over again |-( for example, like trying to prove the set of prime numbers is infinite by counting and counting and counting :D(doh)
[8:25:30 AM] brian says: so, when somebody asks me what the SOURCE of my morals is, i'm not just going to say "because i know murder is wrong"...that's like if somebody asked me to prove that i UNDERSTAND math, and i say "because 1+1=2". that makes no sense, and it doesn't say anything about WHY 1+1=2. so that's what i do with ethics. it's more productive to search for the answer to WHY than just the answer to WHAT. i'll give you a simple example: a child might ask "what should i do if this happens? what should i do if that happens?" well, you can answer each of the questions as they arise, but using that method, it's a lot more difficult for the child to actually learn anything meaningful. but, on the other hand, sometimes just ONE good, solid, meaningful answer to a "why" question eliminates the child's need to ask any more "what" questions. i think that's why kids ask "why" so much; it seems like their favorite interrogative! :D but like i said before, this quest for knowledge is found innately in all humans; it's instinctual. and so is a sense of morality. unless there's some brain defect, etc., every child begins to notice a sense of "fairness", which evolves into a higher concept of "justice"...BUT, the problem is that there's no set of universal guideposts to point people in the right direction. so, since there's no "secret ethical decoder ring", we MUST, as human beings, develop the capacity to analyze situations in a moral context and make decisions which benefit the greatest number of people, and harm the least.
[8:42:45 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: :D
[8:43:02 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: (y)
[8:50:56 AM] brian says: and yes, i understand that you think i'm wrong, that the quran IS the set of universal guideposts...but if it were truly universal, then...well, then it would be UNIVERSAL! :D meaning, nobody would be thinking the EXACT same thing about the bible, the torah, the bhagavad gita, the tao de ching, or whatever! and i can already guess what you're gonna say: well, it IS universal, but the problem is, not everybody understands it yet. well, once again, let me refer back to my old buddy, the analogy with math! now, in all seriousness, i really don't know if there's an underlying "meta-ethics", as philosophers call the search for moral understanding, that is as universal and unchanging as math, and there's a lot of evidence to the contrary! (whew) but it seems like religious people who talk about the "source" of morals seem to think so. so, if that were the case, then it should be as easily accessible as math! throughout history, no matter what the sociopolitical, economic or religious climate, human civilization has been steadily progressing in an understanding of math, because as i said, it is universal and unchanging, and if the rules are applied properly, it never contradicts itself (in fact, logic is basically the same thing as math, and one of the logical absolutes is the "law of non-contradiction"!) but, unfortunately, every religious text that has come along claiming to the the ULTIMATE source of ALL morality has come up short, because they're all fraught with contradictions, so that's why nobody in the world can agree about religion. BUT, at least everyone in the world can agree on math and logic, because they never lie (mm)8-| and that's why they have survived the test of time (nod)
[8:51:53 AM] brian says: hey, who knows? maybe allah's contribution to human literature wasn't really "al-qur'an"...maybe it was "al-jabr wa'l muqabalah"! ;)8-|(chuckle)
[8:52:32 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: well if the qran is not universal why do people believe it froma ll the world even athiest ?????????????
[8:53:39 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: look ist hard for u to explan in a short sentence ?
[8:54:26 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: learn from the quran one word that explan evrthing
[8:55:13 AM] brian says: ah, well, atheists by definition can't believe in the supernatural claims of the quran, otherwise they wouldn't be atheists; it's just part of the definition. but yeah, the same thing is true of all those other texts i mentioned, even the book of mormon and really crazy ones like that...hell, even SCIENTOLOGY has members scattered all over the world! :D the main thing is, people are hungry for answers, and "easy" answers are very appealing...
[8:56:04 AM] brian says: unfortunately, the world just isn't that simple...and you know what, it's not even unfortunate! :D i wouldn't like it if everything were that simple. i like complexity.
[8:56:25 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: :D
[8:56:37 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: okt hx for your time man
[8:56:51 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: do u have mic ?
[8:58:03 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: do u have mic ?
[9:00:52 AM] brian says: anyway, it might seem really easy to have simplistic moral edicts like "don't EVER drink", because it's obvious that alcohol can lead to disaster...but it's not always as simple as that...there's a tricky human element to everything; when the u.s. tried to ban alcohol(i'm sure you've heard of the prohibition of the 20s and 30s), it gave rise to powerful organized crime, feeding the greed of people like al capone, etc. and many people suffered as a direct result of the stranglehold such crime lords held over neighborhoods...not to mention, a lot of people who used to work in bars and breweries and distillieries lost their jobs, and suffered as a result of that. but the main thing is, once the government tried to forbid something like that, it was easy for real criminals to take advantage of the situation and make things a lot worse. that's why prohibition was finally repealed.
[9:01:16 AM] brian says: oh, i got one somewhere... (think)(chuckle)
[9:01:17 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: do u have mic ?
[9:01:25 AM] brian says: why, you got a conference going?
[9:01:37 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: no
[9:01:45 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: i am talking to one of my friends
[9:01:47 AM] brian says: yeah, sorry for typing so much, i just wanted to get some things off my chest (whew)
[9:01:50 AM] brian says: ahhh
[9:01:53 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: u can join us
[9:02:10 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: its will be very eays
[9:02:16 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: esy
[9:02:48 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: cos u like philosophy alot
[9:03:04 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: so its better if its by mic
[9:03:19 AM] brian says: ok, if you wanna call me, that's cool, but i might not be able to talk, because i've been working on some stuff, and i don't want to forget about it (chuckle) plus, i gotta dig up my mic (doh)
[9:03:25 AM] brian says: :D
[9:03:33 AM] brian says: ah, well, sometimes it can be better, yeah (nod)
[9:03:51 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: ok then lets do it
[9:03:54 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: can i cal u ?
[9:04:25 AM] brian says: but actually, i find that the written word is much more reliable, because there's no chance of forgetting something, or losing track...which i often do (drunk):D
[9:04:43 AM] brian says: yeah, go ahead, but you won't be able to hear me |-(
[9:05:49 AM] *** ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ added ♥๑۩۞۩★ DREAM ★۩۞۩๑♥ to this chat
Click here to view remainder of this chat.
***

-------------

wow, that's creepy...i said "you won't be able to hear me"...it feels like he never has really heard me... :D and then he added "DREAM" to the chat...he hasn't been able to hear me, because he's been screaming his dreams so loud, he can only hear the sound of his own thoughts, echoing the same things over and over... *whew*

ok ok, i was taking a little dramatic license there :D
i'm sure he's an ok guy; though i've never had a productive discussion with him... :/

peace, everybody...live your dreams, don't be afraid of the unknown.

and now, here's my mega-response, in all its glory: QUINING QUINTESSENCE.

peace,
-b

-------------

in the UPDATE at the top, i mentioned a subsequent chat: here it is.
i sincerely hope that you, the readers, are able to glean some nuggets of understanding from it... perhaps at least some cultural insights, if not any ethical ones.

-------------

[1:30:12 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: http://alqaree.com/
[1:30:25 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: its al here u can listen to it if u like
[1:31:19 AM] brian says: i like the tradition of singing :) i guess there's a little bit of that tradition in the bible, like the song of solomon, but nobody actually sings it anymore |-( it's too bad! (chuckle) also, the hindu scripture "bhagavad gita" means "song of god", and originated as a song :)
[1:31:24 AM] brian says: ahh, cool!
[1:31:44 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: lol
[1:31:54 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: its not a song
[1:32:02 AM] brian says: as i said, i'm interested in languages, but i'm also very fascinated by different styles of music throughout the world (music)8-|(mm)
[1:32:06 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: did u hear any musik ????????
[1:32:31 AM] brian says: well, i guess they don't sing it anymore, but it's derived from oral tradition (nod)
[1:32:42 AM] brian says: you mean last time? (nod)
[1:32:44 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: lol
[1:32:56 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: listen to any musik and to quran
[1:33:03 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: and u will see quran is not a musik
[1:33:32 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: just listen to it more http://alqaree.com/
[1:33:42 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: and u wil understand it by yiur self
[1:33:52 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: brb
[1:49:51 AM] brian says: hmm, ok... (think)
[1:51:03 AM] brian says: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpNx3iqVeNA
this is my favorite style of singing from a different part of the world (mm) in this video, it's a woman singing it (mm)(music)
[1:51:55 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: (y)
[1:52:12 AM] brian says: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxK4pQgVvfg
and here are some men singing it 8-)(music)
[1:52:24 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: we have alot like it lol
[1:52:33 AM] brian says: ahhh!
[1:52:56 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: but the quran is not a musik lol
[1:53:06 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: just undersatnd it
[1:53:09 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: thats all
[1:53:35 AM] brian says: yeah, i have noticed some subtle overtone qualities in arabic singing too...but there's nothing quite like tuvan throat singing 8-)
[1:53:41 AM] brian says: what's wrong with music? (think)
[1:54:05 AM] brian says: hmm, when you say "understand it", does that mean i have to agree with the things that i find immoral? :S
[1:54:08 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: who said that there is worng with musik ?
[1:54:21 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: immoral ?
[1:54:50 AM] brian says: i mean, what's wrong with listening to people sing the quran, and thinking of it as nice music? (think)
[1:55:24 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: look when u , understand what is musik u will now that quran is not a musik
[1:55:32 AM] brian says: yes, i have found many parts of the quran(and the bible, and other scriptures) to be immoral.
[1:55:47 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: ok show me one in the quran ?
[1:55:50 AM] brian says: oh, so now i don't understand music? (sweat)
[1:56:24 AM] brian says: well, i've already shown you several, but you always give me the same answer, so i guess i'll just have to wait for someone else to explain it to me... :S and i don't want to waste your time if you just plan to give the "party line" every time...
[1:56:45 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: ya u mean about the hell
[1:57:04 AM] brian says: well, yes, that's one thing which is immoral...
[1:57:22 AM] brian says: in fact, yes, that's the most immoral thing about any religion
[1:57:25 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: so what u want it to be like
[1:57:38 AM] brian says: infinite punishment doesn't fit finite crimes.
[1:57:50 AM] brian says: it's not about what i "want", it's about justice.
[1:58:09 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: aha so there is no justice
[1:58:17 AM] brian says: sometimes justice means NOT getting what i want, but i'd rather have justice than get what i want...justice is more important to me.
[1:58:19 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: so can u tell me what is justice ?
[1:58:44 AM] brian says: no, there IS a form of justice, but it is not consistent, so there are some mistakes.
[1:59:33 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: if you are a king and there is people who says that you are a liear and they wnat to make people to hate u what is justice for them will be from u ?
[1:59:55 AM] brian says: sure, it still works a lot of the time, especially in everyday human affairs: after all, just as i said, humans are born with a societal instinct (nod)
[2:00:52 AM] brian says: well, in that case, i probably wouldn't even need to deal with the liars. i would simply have to present my argument to my own people, and show them why the liars' words are false.
[2:01:12 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: nop
[2:01:17 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: i didnt ask u that
[2:01:21 AM] brian says: if i demonstrated the evidence to my people, then there wouldn't be a problem.
[2:01:26 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: what will u do to them ?
[2:02:02 AM] brian says: well, then the answer is i wouldn't try to punish the liars, no. because i believe the value of free speech is far greater than any "example" that might be shown by punishing those who spread lies.
[2:02:11 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: lol
[2:02:35 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: they will punish u if u dont punish them cos they try to take your kingdom
[2:03:06 AM] brian says: also, it would engender the belief that i couldn't handle criticism, so i force my opponents to remain silent by punishing them. that is the wrong strategy.
[2:03:25 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: hey will punish u if u dont punish them cos they try to take your kingdom
[2:04:16 AM] brian says: but if their methods consist purely of spreading false information to try to sow dissention among my own people, then i would simply have to educate my people about the false information.
[2:04:26 AM] brian says: false information is only dangerous when it is believed to be true.
[2:04:37 AM] brian says: once i take away the power of the lies, they are harmless.
[2:04:41 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: i didnt ask u that
[2:04:55 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: answer me plzz
[2:05:14 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: dont start philosophy with me man
[2:05:18 AM] brian says: yes, you asked me what "justice" i would exact on people who would try to conquer my kingdom with lies: and my answer is that i wouldn't respond to them.
[2:05:20 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: ist hard to answer ?
[2:05:35 AM] brian says: but philosophy IS what we're talking about...
[2:05:43 AM] brian says: no, it's easy to answer!
[2:05:47 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: look answer me plzz
[2:05:51 AM] brian says: i've already told you EXACTLY what i would do!
[2:05:56 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: they want to take your kingdom
[2:06:05 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: what will u do to them
[2:06:14 AM] brian says: i'm sorry if you don't agree with my strategy, but it's the most effective and non-violent way to stop a rebellion.
[2:06:18 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: do u fight them back to save it or not ?
[2:06:31 AM] brian says: i will laugh at them, because their lies have no meaning when i expose them.
[2:06:38 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: look how its easy my quesioin
[2:06:48 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: and u talk in a philosophy way
[2:06:57 AM] brian says: in order for them to elicit a response from me, there has to be a real, physical threat(not just words)
[2:06:57 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
[2:07:01 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: just answer me
[2:07:03 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: ok
[2:07:16 AM] brian says: wait, you say "fight them back"
[2:07:26 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: people who wants to take your kindom ann they want to kiil u waht will u do ?
[2:07:56 AM] brian says: does that mean would i respond to mere words with physical violence? then once again, the answer is NO.
[2:08:18 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: so u will let them kiil u and take your kingdom ?
[2:08:24 AM] brian says: no, i would not start physical violence with anyone who didn't start violence with me.
[2:08:36 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: agree
[2:08:42 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: so what if they start ?
[2:08:51 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: do u fight back ?
[2:08:59 AM] brian says: no, i already told you: i would educate my people about their lies, and the danger, so they would be prepared to defend our nation.
[2:09:13 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: omg
[2:09:14 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: man
[2:09:27 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: they want to kiil u and take your kingdom
[2:09:33 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: what will u do
[2:09:41 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: all what they want is to kiil u
[2:09:48 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: do u , understand ???????????????????
[2:10:04 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: غبـــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــيييييييييييى
[2:10:06 AM] brian says: ok, now we're getting into tricky territory, because it would depend on the nature of the situation, and the depth of violence in the other society.
[2:10:25 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: man plzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
[2:10:27 AM] brian says: you're describing monsters from a horror movie. i'm talking about REAL LIFE.
[2:10:32 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: ist hard to answer
[2:10:40 AM] brian says: yes, if they were monsters from a horror movie, i would kill them.
[2:10:50 AM] brian says: YES< it's hard to answer.
[2:10:55 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: ok
[2:11:04 AM] brian says: it SHOULD be hard to decide whether or not to KILL someone.
[2:11:14 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: if some one wnats to kill u do u fight him back or u will let him kiil u ?
[2:11:20 AM] brian says: this is not a subject to be taken so frivolously.
[2:12:26 AM] brian says: look all you're saying is that he WANTS to kill me. that's MOTIVE, only one criterion out of THREE that are necessary to provoke a response.what's important is whether he has
[2:12:50 AM] brian says: he would have to have MOTIVe, MEANS and OPPORTUNITY for me to consider using violence.
[2:12:50 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: just answer me plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
[2:12:57 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: why u run from the answer
[2:13:08 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: if some one wants to kill u do u fight him back or u will let him kiil u ?
[2:13:12 AM] brian says: i AM answering you. you want to know what would make me use violence, andi'm telling you.
[2:13:27 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: ok just answer me yes or no
[2:13:35 AM] brian says: MOTIVE = he wants to kill me.
MEANS = he has a gun.
OPPORTUNITY = he is close enough to shoot me.
[2:13:36 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: all what u said i know it
[2:13:48 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: i knowwwwwwwwwwwwwww
[2:13:51 AM] brian says: then yes, i would resort to violence to save my life.
[2:13:55 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: just answer me
[2:14:13 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: ok (dance)u answer me
[2:14:14 AM] brian says: but ONLY if i were satisfied that those three criteria were met.
[2:15:05 AM] brian says: dude, did you really think i would give a different answer??? (think) like i said, these are CHILD'S issues! :D
[2:16:01 AM] brian says: for a long time, i have been hoping that you would move past these simple, basic, yes/no problems and move on to a deeper analysis of ethics... (think)
[2:16:40 AM] brian says: but it doesn't look good...because you say "don't use philosophy"...that's basically like saying "don't think. don't use your head."
[2:16:46 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: so if the people wnats to kill u and take your kingdom and they are in your home and they but the gun and they are loking at u in your eye and saying ok kill him and wow they are shting at u with the gun and the bullet is comeing to u and its neer to u its comeing look out from it aha so know u will kill them cos its very clear that they really wants to kill u
[2:17:04 AM] brian says: "don't use your head to think, use it as an object to throw at anyone who doesn't like you."
[2:17:09 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: i said dont answer me in a philosophy way
[2:17:20 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: its an easy quesioin
[2:17:25 AM] brian says: no, i DON'T know that i will kill them.
[2:17:33 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: ya
[2:17:35 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: you are right
[2:17:43 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: so go and teel that to your country
[2:17:59 AM] brian says: all i know is that i will try to do anything in my power to save my life, but i will NOT let that conflict with my OTHER moral obligations.
[2:18:23 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: when they go and kill muslims cos they are going to kil them they are terrorism
[2:18:36 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: ya they dont wait
[2:18:40 AM] brian says: no, i would also protect my country...all i'm saying is that i would NOT sacrifice my morality in order to do it. because there is more than just ONE way.
[2:18:48 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: for all muslims to kome and kill them
[2:18:59 AM] brian says: yes, that's a terrible thing.
[2:19:06 AM] brian says: and do you know what the BEST solution is?
[2:19:08 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: they just hear that muslims country wants to kill them by there terrorism people
[2:19:14 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: are u in this world
[2:19:23 AM] brian says: ok, you COULD just slaughter them all, then the problem would be gone. but would that be moral?
[2:19:36 AM] brian says: no, the most effective AND moral solution is EDUCATION.
[2:19:40 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: so why dont u teach your country your philosophy ?
[2:19:55 AM] brian says: education is a FAR more powerful tool than violence.
[2:20:06 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: EDUCATION with gun ?
[2:20:12 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: and kiiling kids
[2:20:25 AM] brian says: because those who will ALWAYS resort to violence are those who are not EDUCATED enough to know a better way.
[2:20:37 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: so u say somthing and your country say another wow
[2:20:40 AM] brian says: yes, education.
[2:20:45 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: so u dont agree with your country ?
[2:21:33 AM] brian says: if they're killing kids, and you decide to go kill a bunch of them, there will be collateral damage. ou will kill some of THIER kids. so basically, you're saying "hey! it's wrong to kill kids! and just to show you HOW wrong it is, i'm gonna kill some of YOUR kids!"
[2:21:43 AM] brian says: people don't respond to such "lessons".
[2:21:49 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: tell me is EDUCATION to kiil kids ?
[2:22:05 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: tell me is EDUCATION to kiil kids ?
[2:22:22 AM] brian says: yes, as i said, if you just kill all of them, then the problem will be gone. but there will still be that gaping hole in your heart that asks "could i have done something else? did i HAVE to kill?"
[2:22:46 AM] brian says: no, education is to prevent the killing of kids.
[2:23:31 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: tell me is EDUCATION to womans ?
[2:23:34 AM] brian says: ask yourself: if you had to name ONE universal factor that is present in ALL disputes between individuals, families, groups, societies, and nations, WHAT would it be?
[2:23:43 AM] brian says: well, i can name one right off the bat: fear.
[2:23:48 AM] brian says: and where does fear come from?
[2:23:51 AM] brian says: IGNORANCE.
[2:24:46 AM] brian says: once you understand something, it's a lot harder to fear it. the more you learn about other cultures and people, the less of a chance there will be for misunderstandings and fights.
[2:24:50 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: tell me is EDUCATION to destroy building ?
[2:25:31 AM] brian says: that is the WHOLE objection i have been raising RIGHT from the start. it's WRONG to say, "if this happens, you should kill someone."
[2:25:48 AM] brian says: killing should be a LAST resort.
[2:26:06 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: so u dont agree with your country ?
[2:26:29 AM] brian says: the LAST thing people need is an instruction to kill...you don't NEED to tell people how and when and why TO kill...killing is a natural part of the animal kingdom, always has been, always WILL be.
[2:26:40 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: so u dont agree with your country ?
[2:30:02 AM] brian says: what you NEED to do is teach people when NOT to kill. show them that killing is from the most primitive part of our nature, and of COURSE the natural instincts will kick in when a person's life is threatened. what we NEED to do is learn ways to identify those instincts, and realize that they are out of place in this modern world of society and culture. we NEED to set violence ASIDE, and discuss OTHER OPTIONS. there is NO NEED to try and get me to answer your questions about violent invaders with motive, means and opportunity. only someone with brain damage or a severe chemical imbalance would NOT instinctively react to save his/her life. what we NEED to do is show that that "life/death" instinct is often WRONG, and is something that we should leave in the jungles and savannas and deserts of our ancient ancestors.
[2:31:05 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: good can u teach your country that plzzzz?
[2:31:10 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwwMF6biCJU
[2:32:28 AM] brian says: what we NEED to do, as a species, is WORK on ways to solve problems WITHOUT using violence. that doesn't mean we should NEVER use violence. it just means that we need to be a LOT more careful about the types of instinctive animal behavior that we can continue to allow to run rampant in our society. we need to EDUCATE people about these behaviors, and show that there are MANY ways to deal with behavior, not just simply responding with the SAME EXACT BEJAVIOR and then wishing the problem would go away. and, dare i say, people need to learn critical thinking skills; skills which form the foundation of logic and philosophy. that way, people can have a larger "toolset" to deal with problems. the best thing to do with a bomb is DEFUSE it. not just blow it up with your own bomb, or throw it intosomeone else's house, even if you consider that person an "enemy".
[2:34:55 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwwMF6biCJU
[2:36:51 AM] brian says: oh, bro, TRUST me...i totally realize that my country needs this help...more than a lot of other countries, peaceful countries like in scandinavia...when i say people need education, i mean ALL people....especially my own people, many of whose minds are starving from ignorance.
[2:37:44 AM] brian says: [2:20:45 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: so u dont agree with your country ?
[2:37:47 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: good so plzz do somthing for that and teach your country
[2:37:50 AM] brian says: i'm sorry, i didn't answer that question.
[2:38:29 AM] brian says: the answer is "it depends" - unfortunately, i disagree with many of the politicians here on many issues.
[2:39:58 AM] brian says: and of course i disagreed with the invasion of iraq, because the american politicians had failed to present evidence of MOTIVE, MEANS and OPPORTUNITY. you see, i hold the SAME standards to everyone. i especially would like my own country to adhere to these standards, and i am quite ashamed when i see ignorant, barbaric behavior.
[2:40:09 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: (y)
[2:40:27 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: thx for your time
[2:40:31 AM] brian says: yeah, sure
[2:41:44 AM] brian says: i really hope you're starting to understand me...i'm not just trying to avoid questions of morality. in fact, it's the exact opposite. i take it VERY seriously, which is EXACTLY why i have to be careful about my responses, and use logic, philosophy, etc. to examine serious issues.
[2:41:48 AM] brian says: anyway...
[2:42:17 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ Happy-Omar ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: (F)
[2:43:06 AM] brian says: (F)
[2:43:10 AM] brian says: (handshake)
[3:24:18 AM] ♥๑۩۞۩★ DREAM ★۩۞۩๑♥ says: ]:)

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yet again, the chat ends with an appearance by the DREAM...and this time, as you'll have noticed if you're already familiar with skype smilies, it is an "evil grin"...i wonder what it might portend, this sinister smile from his dear friend, the dream...

to all of you brave readers who have managed to make it this far, i applaud you, and and once again, let me express the sincere hope that you've gained something from all this.

peace,
-b